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GORGIAS - Internet Sacred Text Archive
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You, Gorgias, like myself, have had great experience ofdisputations, and you must have observed, I think, that they do notalways terminate in mutual edification, or in the definition by eitherparty of the subjects which they are discussing; but disagreements areapt to arise-somebody says that another has not spoken truly orclearly; and then they get into a passion and begin to quarrel, bothparties conceiving that their opponents are arguing from personalfeeling only and jealousy of themselves, not from any interest inthe question at issue.
PLATONIC PHILOSOPHY and NATURAL LAW ..
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512d-e - ... just reflect whether what is good and noble is not something more than saving and being saved. Perhaps the true man should ignore this question of living for a certain span of years and should not be so enamored of life [cf. 522d-e], but should leave these things to God and ... should consider the ensuring question -- , whether by assimilating himself to the type of government under which he lives ...
discourse concerning the good or evil condition of the body
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But what about doing wrong?
Do you agree that no one intentionally does wrong?
Let it be so, Socrates.
So we need skill to be able to avoid wrong.
To avoid suffering wrong
must one either be a dictator
or somehow associated with the government?
Do you see how ready I am to praise you
when you're right, Socrates?
To be friendly with dictators
must not one be like them?
But the powerful can do wrong
without being punished,
and so won't they be in the worst condition,
as we agreed before in our discussion?
Then the soul like them will have the greatest evil.
I don't know how you
turn each argument upside down, Socrates,
or don't you realize
that this person imitating a master
will kill anyone else who doesn't?
I've heard it too often around here lately, Callicles,
but it's the bad killing the good.
Isn't that the problem?
Not for the intelligent,
or do you think one should practice rhetoric
to preserve us from death
and danger in the lawcourts?
By God, it's the right advice for you.
Yet the good is not merely being saved,
but to live as best we can our allotted span.
How can anyone gain great power
without conforming to the state,
for better or worse?
I don't know of any other way.
But for the good of the soul maybe it's better
that we not please the state with flattery
but work to make the citizens as good as we can.
Just as any skilled worker must show their ability
before we would consider their advice for the state,
shouldn't we show that
we have made someone good
before we speak to the good of all,
and can we make anyone else good
if we're not able to first make ourselves good?
So perhaps our first task is to improve ourselves.
Now if the people condemn
or ostracize their leaders,
even great ones like Pericles
and those you mentioned,
they must not have made the state good,
and without justice and prudence
they stuffed the state with arsenals,
walls, tribute, and other trash,
and if they complain they were treated unjustly
after all their valuable services to the state,
the whole thing is a lie,
since a ruler could never be unjustly ruined
by a state which one has ruled.
It's like the sophists
who claim they make people better,
but complain their students
wrong them by not paying.
Doesn't this seem absurd to you, my friend?
I've had to give a speech,
since you won't answer.
Aren't you the one who couldn't speak
unless someone answered?
It seems I can.
But tell me, Callicles, if you think
I should, like a doctor, make the Athenians good,
or should I serve and minister to their pleasures?
I'd say serve and minister.
Then you invite me to flatter them.
If you like to call it that, Socrates;
since unless you do what I say---
Don't tell me that anyone who wishes may kill me,
for only a coward charges one
who's done no wrong.
Yet it wouldn't surprise me if they executed me.
Shall I tell you why?
Gorgias by Plato – WRT 101- Kishore Thamilvanan
The art of dressing up is the sham or simulationof gymnastic, the art of cookery, of medicine; rhetoric is the simulationof justice, and sophistic of legislation.
07/09/2017 · Gorgias tells that rhetorical ..
Now the soul and body have two arts waiting uponthem, first the art of politics, which attends on the soul, having alegislative part and a judicial part; and another art attending on thebody, which has no generic name, but may also be described as having twodivisions, one of which is medicine and the other gymnastic.
such as gymnastics, medicine, legislation, and ..
I would rather not be tedious, and therefore I will only say, after themanner of the geometricians (for I think that by this time you will be ableto follow)
as tiring : gymnastic :: cookery : medicine;
as tiring : gymnastic :: sophistry : legislation;
as cookery : medicine :: rhetoric : justice.
And this, I say, is the natural difference between the rhetorician and thesophist, but by reason of their near connection, they are apt to be jumbledup together; neither do they know what to make of themselves, nor do othermen know what to make of them.